Friends of Semantic Compositions

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« Five things nobody was asking | Main | 3 years of SC »

January 11, 2007

Comments

cko

This is a really heated debate. There is a lot to comment on here, but I would like to limit myself to just a few remarks since I share your view regarding the discussion of religion and politics at work.

I would be surprised if Epps made the argument that language documentation should not result in translation. Her quote, that you provide in this post, indicates that translation from one language (most likely, in this case, Spanish) into the target language does not constitute documentation. Language documentation should document how native speakers of a language talk to other native speakers of that language (N. Himmelmann (2006), in the first chapter of the book "Essentials in Language Documentation" calls this "observable linguistic behavior"). I think this is what Epps meant. Translation is not observable linguistic behavior, which means it is not linguistic documentation. If bible translators are claiming to conduct linguistic documentation, then it doesn't follow. BUT in order to provide a reasonable translation of the bible, it is assumed that the person translating the bible has conducted some amount of field work that does constitute linguistic documentation. (Oftentimes speakers of indigenous language don't speak the contact language that the linguist is trying to use.) Maybe this would be a better point to bring up.

I don't agree with your statement regarding what a goldmine it would be to use bible translations as parallel corpora in order to conduct semantic typology. I would look to work that is being (has been) conducted at the MPI for Psycholinguistics (or in association with that institution) for alternative methods. Here is their website: http://www.mpi.nl/

Finally, I would like to bring up an issue that Jane Hill discusses in her article in the recent Himmelmann (2006) book, namely, that documentary linguists need to be trained in ethnography. Essentially, having an understanding for the cultural practices of a linguistic community is important in understanding linguistic practices since they are closely related. The goal of a field linguist is to document these practices (both linguistic and cultural) and not to change them in a way that adheres to the linguist's cultural practices.

eric "babe" morse

Very interesting reading. Thanks for the in-depth analysis for those who were absent.

Oh, and, ah... have you got a link for those Luigi stories?

Semantic Compositions

It occurs to me in reading your post that in a couple of cases, we're talking at cross purposes, and I am grateful for the illumination of differences.

Regarding the first point, on whether or not Prof. Epps' statement about translation not constituting documentation: I will readily agree that under the definition of language documentation you provide -- "how native speakers of a language talk to other native speakers of that language" -- that the act of translation alone doesn't qualify. However, it did not strike me from the discussion that anyone was arguing that documentation of the languages under that definition wasn't going on; only that it was viewed as merely a necessary step in order to get to the Biblical translation. I should have made that explicit.

The second point re: whether or not the use of the translations as parallel corpora represents a "goldmine" for translation seems to me to be a point where we're coming from different perspectives. I wouldn't stand by the statement that it's useful from the standpoint of conducting typological research, because I didn't make it. As a computationalist, my interest in translation is more along the lines of what one gets from the IBM translation models (see Brown et al. 1993 from the references in this 2002 paper by Marcu and Wong, or just have a look at the second and sixth pages of the linked article to see an example). Alternatively, you might wish to browse the ODIN database presented at LSA 2007, which contains as few as one or two aligned sentences in the cases of some languages represented -- compared to that, a thousand pages of aligned text is very much a goldmine for the applications I have in mind. I wouldn't disagree with the point that having a large body of training data for statistical models renders the recorded linguistic knowledge implicitly rather than explicitly, but aligned corpora with statistical models represent the fastest route to developing a meaningful translation capability. From that perspective, the exact content of the data being aligned doesn't matter (although extending coverage beyond the semantic areas provided by the corpus still requires building a bigger, better lexicon).

As for the issue that you raise with the quote from Jane Hill, I don't think anyone would argue that improved ethnographic resources would be a bad thing. But at that point, you run up against the question of what any researcher, missionary or secular, ought to be doing given finite resources. If a purely academic researcher is only interested in documenting syntax for their typological work, and doesn't want to spend time on mythology or cooking, it's not clear to me that they should be compelled to be anthropologists as well. I don't wish to claim to quote Geoff Pullum directly, since I wasn't able to record him (and this occurred during the Q&A session, after my laptop battery was gone), but he made a statement along the lines of "the choice isn't between SIL's documentation or academic documentation, or SIL's software or academic software -- it's between SIL's products or none at all". Given that, Prof. Pullum's point was that arguments over whether or not the details of their linguistic research precisely matched the desires of other researchers misses the mark -- so long as they are producing documentation of the syntax/semantics/phonology which meets the standards of the academic community. If this is not seriously debated, and my impression as a nonspecialist in the endangered-languages field is that it is not, then demanding that they take on research responsibilities with their own limited resources which are outside the scope of their goals seems rather uncharitable.

Finally, you suggest that the goal of the SIL researchers is to "change [the cultural practices of the communities being researched] in a way that adheres to the linguist's cultural practices". Granting that specific SIL researchers have engaged in proselytizing practices which are definitely proscribed by the academic community, and that it is reasonable to question the vigor with which SIL polices this behavior even though it nominally violates their own policies, I didn't see a convincing rebuttal here to the point that everyone is bringing in cultural practices which may not be shared by the communities that they go visit. If a wholly secular linguist visits a community, learns about their religious practices, and then receives questions about their own views, is it least damaging to say, "Oh I don't believe in that", "I don't want to talk about it", or "I believe in your pantheon"? The last one might deflect discussion about foreign ideas, but sounds rather suspicious, while the former two might be different attitudes than those held by the locals. My point is that nobody comes in with absolutely no views or agenda which differ from the communities they research, and that the notion that the prestige of wealth and power associated with the outsider is uniquely a problem for missionaries, but not for anyone else, is therefore mistaken. So long as no coercion is going on, I'm still not convinced that mere contact with Christian ideas represents any more of a danger to these communities than contact with secular materialism or the Minimalist Program.

Semantic Compositions

Eric: I haven't read any such stories about Luigi (AND I SURE HAVEN'T WRITTEN THEM), but if you've got a strong stomach, you might wish to Google a Flash video titled "Son of a Peach". Curses on the coworker who destroyed my innocence by informing me of its existence!

Wayne Leman

I happen to be an SIL member. I have closely followed this debate over the years. I, too, am bothered when SIL members cross the line and proselytize. Our organization makes it clear to us what we must not do.

As for whether or not our field research is a means to a religious aim, let me speak to that. I happen to be an incurable linguist. I would study languages, like any other academic linguist (of which I am one), even if I were not a member of SIL. My father was a natural linguist. His first language was not English. I grew up hearing him imitate people who spoke various languages. I couldn't help but be interested in languages. The high point of any day's research is when I discover some new word in the language to put in the dictionary. I thoroughly enjoy linguistic research. I have enjoyed all my formal studies in linguistics at several universities. Never once did I proselytize in any of these programs.

My research grammar has been useful for Cheyennes and others. I have published a large volume of Cheyenne texts.

I serve as a member of a Cheyenne team creating a rather large new Cheyenne dictionary (http://www.lulu.com/cdkc).

In our case, we were invited by spiritual leaders of the tribe to help them translate the Bible to their language. Should we have told them no, when that is what they wanted? We accepted their invitation.

Through my "secular" academic research and publications, the Cheyenne people have gained a greater sense of pride in their own language. I have taught many classes at their college, linguistics as well as literacy. I do so because those activities are worthwhile on their own merits. I attend linguistics conferences for the same reasons other academic linguists do.

There are a good number of us within SIL who would do good field research and publish the data, even if there were no Bible translation involved.

Let's not let some bad apples spoil the whole bushel, in any organization, whether it be SIL, LSA, UNESCO, or wherever.

In SIL we really do try to be an academic organization that not only serves the minority languages of the world, including endangered languages, but also the rest of the academic community. Unfortunately, not all SIL members have the same love (or aptitude, for that matter) for linguistic research that some of the rest of us do. Some do see their language research as a means to do Bible translation.

I would rather see language research as something good in and of itself.

Oh, re: Shoebox, SIL continues to support it through its successor Toolbox, which is an even better program. There is a discussion group devoted to Toolbox/Shoebox issues, open to anyone:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/ShoeboxToolbox-Field-Linguists-Toolbox/topics

I personally don't think that Bible translations in a language are the best form of documentation for that language. I encourage my SIL coworkers to publish texts, dictionaries, and reference grammars for that purpose. But we all know, I think, of some languages where the only remaining documentation is of religious texts recorded by Jesuit priests or missionaries of other religious persuasions. Something is better than nothing. But many things are better than "something"! :-)

Wayne Leman

As for the initial question that started this latest chapter in the ongoing debate about SIL, I personally wish that there were some other entity, besides SIL, which would have the qualifications and commitment to maintain the ISO standards for language name abbreviations in Unicode and elsewhere. There is no need to tie that work to the Ethnologue, IMO. Let's remove the source of irritation some people feel from having the ISO worked connected to SIL. The debate that has occurred is healthy and appropriate. But this particular debate wouldn't have to take place if some other entity could do what SIL consented to do.

Albert Bickford

Thank you for writing up these comments, since I was unable to attend the symposium.

In the course of debates such as this, I have been puzzled by the term "proselytize", which seems to hold a key role in the debate. However, it is not at all clear to me that it is being used in a consistent fashion by different writers. For some, it seems to mean "to coerce a change of religious belief", for others to mean something more like "to make known a religious belief and invite people to adopt it" (e.g., perhaps, by translating the Bible). The term, obviously, has strongly negative connotations, so accusing a person or organization of proselytizing has quite a bit of emotive force. But, if different people are using the term in different ways, then the discussion is generating more heat than light. As an SIL member, I would especially be concerned about accusations that are made on the basis of a milder definition of the term, but in a context where the harsher and more insidious sense might well be understood. So, it would be helpful to me for writers to clarify exactly what sorts of activities they are referring to when they use the term.

Claire

SC, many thanks for writing this up (and I hope my talk made up for the bit you had to miss because of it!)

I have a post in the works about this issue, but here are three quick comments:

1) I get the impression that the SIL membership and activities are very different in different parts of the world. In Australia, for example, I can think of cases where SIL members were very valuable in helping academic linguists interact with missionary missionaries, in smoothing paths and helping to alleviate some of the anti-linguistic "these people must speak English and only English in order to be saved" ideas. Then again, these communities have been Christian for some time and that makes a big difference. But point stands: SIL isn't a homogeneous organisation.

2) Another issue that hasn't been brought up is professional accountability. When an academic linguist goes to the field, it's usually pretty clear what their primary (and only) affiliation is, and why they are there. People may not understand the role, but it's a well-defined one. SIL members, by definition, cannot be perceived to be in the same position. No matter what the personal convictions and behaviour of any single member are, they are in the field as representatives of an organisation with a dual structure and purpose. That needs discussion.

3) Literacy. Literacy is not neutral and has profound political and social consequences. All linguistic actions do, at some level. I see in general an acute lack of awareness of these issues (or perhaps an unwillingness to confront these issues) amongst many linguists, but particularly amongst SIL linguists. The way their policy has been repeatedly characterised to me is "we offer linguistic and literacy skills, and we'd also like to introduce new people to God and Jesus, but these two things are separate, and if they don't want the latter, that's ok." My problem is that it's not that simple! especially the first part. this applies to all linguists, missionary or academic.

Wayne Leman

Claire's third point was:

"Literacy. Literacy is not neutral and has profound political and social consequences. All linguistic actions do, at some level. I see in general an acute lack of awareness of these issues (or perhaps an unwillingness to confront these issues) amongst many linguists, but particularly amongst SIL linguists. The way their policy has been repeatedly characterised to me is "we offer linguistic and literacy skills, and we'd also like to introduce new people to God and Jesus, but these two things are separate, and if they don't want the latter, that's ok." My problem is that it's not that simple! especially the first part. this applies to all linguists, missionary or academic."

You're right, Claire. Literacy has always been viewed as a necessary part of SIL's work, and for the reason you mentioned. But the first part of this is now changing, slowly, within SIL. Some of us are recognizing that there really are people groups who do not wish to become literate in their own language. And if they do not, it is wrong for anyone, no matter how noble they might feel their motivations are, or how strongly they might feel they know "better", to try to make people become literate when they do not wish to do so. There are now consultants and one or two departments within SIL devoted to what some call non-print media. Of course, the translated Bible would appear in some non-print medium, since, as everyone knows SIL members help translate the Bible.

You are also right to raise the question of whether it is right for any organization to have dual structures and dual goals. SIL members themselves have been debating these issues for decades and continue to do so. I'm not saying that the debates are of the highest priority for many SIL members, but they still do take place, including on email discussion lists.

I grew up in a small village where we were forcibly colonized twice, and lost two languages before our last colonizers, the Americans, brought us our third language, English. I freely acknowledge that because of the pain of my family in going through these linguistic losses, I advocate for the rights of minority language groups to maintain their languages, *if* they wish to do so. Perhaps this paragraph isn't relevant to the rest of the discussion, but to me it helps clarify that by no means is all of my motivation religious as a field and academic linguist and member of SIL. I have moral concerns about the treatment of language minorities based on prejudice and discrimination which my village family has experienced. I am motivated to help people have choices if they wish them. In my case I was asked by the Cheyennes to help them produce bilingual education materials to help them preserve the language. I had no training in development of such curriculum but one can learn quickly on the job.

Like you, I feel very negatively toward those who have made the people in my village as well as the Cheyennes with whom I have worked feel like they have to change themselves to become like "white Christians" in order to be acceptable to God. Although it may not help much in debates about SIL, I suspect that most SIL members feel the same way about other Christians who present their Christianity in such strong ethnocentric terms.

Dan Everett

I read the summary of the missionaries and linguists symposium at the LA LSA meeting, organized by Lise Dobrin.

The summary of my talk is almost completely erroneous. I did not give a talk opposing SIL. I said that everything I was about to say I had already published in Intercom and that my views were no secret to those in SIL who knew me. My view is that SIL is a missionary organization, not a scientific organization (though it has many superb scientists as members) and that the LSA should be aware of this. I explicitly said that I opposed actions against SIL or its members, other than what I just said about formal recognition of its missionary status.

I also said that I do not believe in God and that is correct. But nothing I said at the LSA meeting was a new idea I had after leaving SIL.

Dan Everett

Claire

But Dan, the LSA is also not a scientific organisation, although it has scientists as members. Not all linguistics is science and categorising the field monolithically as such is, I think, unhelpful. Come on, the LSA doesn't even have an ethics statement! (although it will...)

Thanks for your comments Wayne. Have there been conclusions about the dual structure issue? (I didn't mean to paint them as irreconcilable, by the way, and I suspect that in some areas, when the two mesh, SIL is more effective than many other organisations.)

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Rather actually! I wouldn't stand by the statement that it's useful from the standpoint of conducting typological research, because I didn't make it.

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- Do not be so neglectful!
Be compelled not be late!
Should not be mannered to tarry in return the Lord!
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Peer laughed: "I remembered his childhood?"
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